Just a brief note on Cletus
' writeup, above.
If we take the view (as Cletus obviously does not) that the scope of science extends to the whole arena of causality, Cletus' interesting definition:
'using means beyond the scope of science, to cause [...]'
would make 'manipulative magic' a null
As a non-occultist, I can live with that consequence, but practitioners less philosophically motivated (dare I say sophisticated?) than Mr Foetus may find Aleister Crowley's definition:
'Magick is the Art and Science of causing change in conformity with Will'
to be less of a strain.
If so, they may appreciate his motto:
We place no reliance
On Virgin or Pigeon
Our Method is Science
Our aim is Religion.