A dialogue written as a first-person narrative:

Hey, God does crazy shit. Why create the world to destroy it? It goes into the idea that (uh-oh, prepared for some theology) God is outside of time. If God is outside of time, then everything was created and destroyed at the same time, according to God. So there was no "put it there to remove it later" or "create to be destroyed later," it all happened at the same time.

Since God created the world outside of time, but we perceive time to continue, in our perspective God must still be actively creating everything So God is, essentially, taking away the stuff that God already put there in the first place. This makes free will irrelevant, because God is creating us and our minds and bodies every microsecond of every day, and thus creating our actions. People who believe in God and free will are limiting God's abilities.

that's one of those things that makes sense as a theoretical diagram, but the logic of it, for me at least, always crumbled under one word. Why? Why what? why bother? Why bother what? Creating it all? why would god bother doing it, I can't see a purpose.

It's not our business why God does it. the problem with logic is it can lead you anywhere but when you ignore the specific steps and think about the overall, it stops working. I think it's definitely our business.

But there is a certain sovereignty that we religious folk attribute to God, and that's one of them. It's a problem when people stop questioning what they hear about God. Not that you aren't thinking for yourself, but you have to see my problem with that argument: if you don't question God, you'll believe anything about him. I never liked the argument they gave me at school that God just did it because that's what God does and I should just believe it and stop asking. Dyou see my point?

I question an awful lot about "How," but "why" is a question that has no affect on me. I see your point, yes. Why, I think, is immensely important. To try to understand "why" is to try to understand God, which is humanly impossible. It's an exercise in futility It's just a matter of how you perceive the world... until I understand why, I ignore how. because if there's all the logic but no ultimate purpose, I can't believe it

I'm not denying purpose. I'm just saying that there's no way in hell I could ever understand it. It's part of the nature of God; God is not human, and doesn't have a human mind. The "why" is impossible for us to comprehend, but if you're created in god's image, that seems to be a spiritual/intelectual reference. so if values are replicas of God's ideals, then fundamentally, people are imperfect reflections of God so the comprehension is more possible than that.

Can a reflection in a mirror think? And values change depending on people's perceptions of God. Or, well, people's perceptions of God change depending on their values. I know one thing: I am thinking. This I am certain of. Now, why am I think what I am? Hormones, genes, culture, environment, sleep deprivation, who knows. But I can't believe in fate if I can't see a purpose, and if something is unknowable, I can't trust it. God as a Clockmaker makes sense to me.

The only reason to trust it is because you are alive. But what do you trust? Organized interpretations, yourself, a set of values you've reasoned? I trust the fact that I am alive. I trust that my life, in it's totality, is in someone else's hands and I couldn't change that if I wanted to. There isn't an ultimate truth that everyone can be certain of, and the only option is to trust or not. I also trust that I'm alive, but I can't trust in fate because I can't know if the establishment suporting it represents the truth.

But the fate is outside of the establishment. But you have to believe the establishment to believe in fate, it's just true. Nay! how else? the establishment preaches fate. Because to believe in Fate, which encompasses all time, is to believe that Fate was acting before the establishment was created. that's not something that exists as a universal maxim. but the establishment tells you that. it's not part of every culture or every religion... not even most of them, no, it's not. my only point is, I trust myself and I trust what I figure out for myself. I will support you to my death or you own in that

God makes sense. But I don't believe that God makes sense, not in our understanding of it. There is no reason to believe that God is logical. The human mind is logical, why not its creator? You're creating God in man's image. It's the other way around. We have no idea in what way, shape, or form God created us. Or in what way the image is reflected. We just know that there's something about us that's similar.

I'm saying, we're based on God. something as fundamental as logic isn't coming out of nowhere. the universe is constructed according to logic. there is some crazy form of reason in every instant and atom of our lives. whether it's direct or not, there's a reason.

What about Eisenberg's uncertainty principle? Well, it's a principle based on Eisenberg's rational thought. So we're right back where we started. Yeah, but the rational thought is created by God. And rational thinking is linear, like time. so God is subject to some form or other of rationality, he's the source of some form of rationality.

God creates rationality, but why do you assume that makes God rational? because he's the source of rationality. God creates evil too. Is God evil? does god create evil or is evil the absence of God? I'd say the second. I'd say the first. it's more of a vacuum than an entity. But that's because you believe in the clockmaker, and I believe in the eternal creator.

Space-time. The scientific community agrees that space and time are related in a continuum, right? sure. Using that as a premise, and acknowledging that God is outside of space, then God would have to be outside of time as well, logically. If you were to accept the idea that God is outside of time, the clockmaker-God would be impossible. you have to be careful about logic. it's deceiving. but here it checks out. Where there is no time, a beginning and an end are impossible. Everything happens at the same time, or has always been and always will be happening.

I have trouble with that one. Sometimes you have to look around you. There's no doubt that we perceive time. For all practical purposes, time may even exist for us. But not for God. The concept of an existence outside time, or a timeless creation is very, very, very difficult concept to get one's mind around. No, it makes perfect sense. But you still have issues with it.

Because if you have an umovable creator you can't hav ea beginning to time. It's the same idea as that of "Eternity" Eternity means it always was, and always will be. time and eternity are enmeshed, but is there an eternity, and is time constant. because if there is no space, there is no time, and at some point or another, something had to come from nothing. in which case your time as a blob theory works again, but you have to look around you and see the effects the past has on the present and realize that doesn't coincide. you can't have echoes if every sound erupts at once.

I already said, we are certainly not outside of time.We experience time day in and day out. then time exists, but not to God. you can't have it both ways.

Okay, let me analogize. Paper exists. Am I bound to the properties of paper?Hmm..that didn't work. Let me think again.

I have the idea, but I'm having difficulty explaining it. Because God created everything. And God is outside time. And God is outside space. So space, as we know existd. God is simply not limited by space. Likewise, time exists, but God is not bound by the constrains or properties of time. I think that's better than trying to execute an analogy.

it works on paper. but if god creates everything he creates time. and if there is not time without god, god has no origin, and even your time all happening at once can't work. God has no origin. God is eternal.

By separating god from time, time becomes its own god. you can't separate God from time, he creates everything, and it limits his power. if there is existence of any kind there is time. But you're misunderstanding. An eternal God is one who always was and always will be. Not dating from the beginning of time to the end of time, but always.

And that means time is always and space is not because space has an origin, the correlation's dead if they aren't codependent. Why does that mean that time is always? how do you define time? That doesn't answer the question. I'm not trying to answer, I'm trying to see how you define time. it seems like we're starting from different point on this one. But if my definition of time is shaky or weak, then you'll use that to debase my whole argument about God being outside of time because of a faulty premise. that's my problem, you have to define time to see if it's really separate from god. If I had to choose, I'd say that time is the progression of events. that's a good definition. I would've said the same.

So let's say time is the progression of events. God is the origin of all events. God is the origin of time. Time cannot exist without God, and simply by existing, God creates time. Eiter God lets time unfold, or God creates every instant of time. But time, by its very nature, can exist independent of an outside, perpetuating force. It is self-perpetuating by definition. Therefore, God is either the Clockmaker or he is the origin of every waking instant. So where does this leave us? I'll tell you where it leaves us.

It leaves us with God is either a Clockmaker, or God created/creates everything in all time. exactly!