i remember a while back, when i was working for a certain unnamed non-profit organization/pit of hypocrisy in the theater district of boston, there was this receptionist lady over in the administrative building who once asked me for a favor. she wanted me to design her tattoo. at the time, i was doing web design and, hell, practically anything at all creative for the company and this seemed like a nice departure from the standard health- and AIDS-awareness drivel i was regularly wont to do.

the design she had wanted was remarkable: she wanted the virgin mary (complete with halo, beams of light issuing from her hands, and overall ethereal nimbus) standing on a cloud, looking the standard holy, immaculate and pure. but she also wanted her to look like a skank whore, too: micro-mini skirt hem on the patented blue and white robes, a curvaceousness that defied san francisco's own lombard street and a plunging neckline that revealed cleavage, cleavage, and more cleavage (i have never before imagined what the virgin mary's erect nipple would look like).

i was all like "wow" when she finished describing it to me. i then followed this up with a bewildered "..why?".

she said that's how men see women: "they either want us to be a saint or a slut."

about a year later, i was hanging out with my downstairs neighbor friend, dan, one night and we were talking. somehow we got to talking about girls and he mentioned that though he would not exactly bring someone like britney spears home to meet his mom, he would be all over the chance to fuck someone like her. that whole slut vs. saint thing.

it's interesting how there is often a marked difference between who men want to fuck and who they want to spend their lives with. who we perceive as our ultimate carnal fantasy and who we want to resonate deep within our hearts. the difference being, in a lot of contexts, the slut is someone men feel like they have to be morally superior to. they would be disgusted to be associated with them in social circles or polite company. they're dirty. below them. slut. skank. whore. easy. but there is some sort of allure to the taboo that exists because they are what men often want. perhaps they represent power to men. a mere nameless body and pretty face being the vehicle to elevate men's egos and perceptions of control, allowing the animal urges to take over.

the ironic bit is found in the saint perception: the saint can never delve into what the slut does. to do so would mar the image of purity and wholesomeness that attracted the man to her in the first place. not that men prostrate themselves before her, but there is a sense of privilegedness that comes with knowing that she "belongs" to him. that she is a part of his life and he is better for it. that she holds him back for his own good. that he can in no way feel complete without her. this could quite possibly be that whole control thing again. instead of being the dominant party, the man desires to take on a more submissive (if equal) role.

i thought it could have just been a straight male kind of thing but no.. gay men do it to each other all the time. hell, i'm guilty of the same crime - i look at guys i would deem "hot" and ogle them like a rabid furry animal but at the same time i would be disgusted at the thought of being with them for any longer than a torrid encounter would take.

i guess it's just a guy thing then.

Well, well, well - I may enjoy a high cholesterol meal more than I enjoy a regular one. I may, at times, have a craving for chocolate that’s stronger than anything I will ever feel towards any type of pasta. This does not mean, however, that I would like a lifetime of high cholesterol, nor that I would rather restrict my pasta eating than my partaking of chocolate.
The point is that they may be certain things you find sexually arousing in a woman, but - surprise-surprise! They don’t make her the perfect mate.
I’m not trying to say that the Slut vs. Saint issue isn’t major for many men – it certainly is, and can be given both Darwinian and cultural explanations. However, wanting to spear young ms. Spears and not wanting to marry her doesn’t happen because she’s not as saintly as you’d wish – she’s just not your friend’s kind of girl – too stupid, too annoying or just too implanted...
We choose our bedmates according to certain criteria, and we sometimes choose our soul mates differently. However, the choices are not mutually exclusive.
Cletus: here's my theory on the question you posited-- nice girls (at least the nice girls who are also widely considered attractive) almost never date nice guys because they can afford to be picky in whom they romance. So naturally they gravitate to men who (Duh!) are widely considered attractive by females.

Now's where it gets tricky. (okay, not really) Since attractive men have much easier access to the cream of the femme crop, they tend to become arrogant assholes; the definition of "NOT nice". Let's be realistic here, how often is Fraternity Freddy or Star Quarterback a nice guy? Hell yes, I am sure some are Princes among Men, and kind to little old ladies, door-knocking Mormons and even Pauly Shore-- but the majority are those straight-teethed golden boys anyone sensible loves to hate.

So here you have your reason, devoid of any hypocritical pretenses, and touchy-feely BS. If you're pretty fugly like me, you can be nicer than Roy Rogers on Prozac and you still ain't gittin' no play. __________________

Please shower me with the righteous "you are a cynical prick" now. I feel guilty for my largesse of XP and love whining-hearts in full attack mode dimly countering the truth.

This seemingly bizarre bit of human behavior, like most others, makes much more sense when you look at it from the perspective of evolutionary psychology. The basic thing to keep in mind is that both men and women want to have as many offspring as possible, and, just as importantly, they want offspring with traits that will allow the offspring to reproduce successfully. Now, men and women must employ rather different strategies, because of several fundamental biological differences:
  1. A women can have only a very limited number of children in her lifetime; a woman has a limited number of ovaries, she can only bear one child every two to three years, and in pre-civilized times (which is the environment we're discussing when we're dicussing human evolution), women have a strong tendency to die in childbirth. Men, on the other hand, have an essentially limitless supply of sperm; a man can (to put it bluntly) impregnate as many women as he can get his dick into.
  2. While pregnant with or rearing a child, a woman is essentially unable to provide for herself and the child.1 The best situation, then, is for a woman to have an unencumbered man to provide for her and for a child which he has an interest in supporting.
  3. This is important: a woman can always be sure that a baby is hers; she's there when it pops out of her. A man can never be absolutely sure that a baby is his (pre-civilization, remember).2
So, the best strategy for a male to use is basically to sleep with anyone he can. On the other hand, a woman has to choose very carefully whom she lets impregnate her. A woman wants3 to have children with men who can impregnate lots of women (so her child, if male, will get genes which let him impregnate lots of women), but men who can impregnate lots of women tend not to stick around to support her and the child. So a woman wants a long-term relationship with one type of man, while sleeping with a different type of man. On the other hand, a man wants to make sure that he isn't supporting some other man's child, which is what is likely to happen if his woman sleeps around a lot.

See where this is going? Men like sluts becuase they can sleep with them, but they don't like sluts because they can't control them. And women like asshole guys because they have genes which allow them to reproduce a lot, but don't like assholes because they are less likely to support the woman and child. There you go.


Bear in mind that things get unbelievably more complicated when take people out of the savannah and put them in a complex society. However, I think that this framework still allows us to explain a lot of seemingly completely irrational behavior.

Also, I didn't really come up with all of this myself; I'm basically repeating arguments I saw on a Discovery Channel show on evolution and human sexual behavior a few years ago. If anyone knows the name of this show, it would be nice if they would /msg me so I can give credit where credit is due.



1. No, I'm not saying that women are inferior to men or that women can't survive without men or that it's inherently wrong to raise a child out of wedlock or any of that crap. Civilization mov es at a much, much faster rate than biological evolution, and conditions have changed quite a bit since we as humans got the behavioral tendencies that we're stuck with. Time for more evolution.

2. Actually, there are a few mechanisms in place whereby a man can be a little certain of a child's paternity. Newborn babies, whether male or female, resemble their father more than their mother, and the maternal side of the family will tend to comment on this more than the paternal side, since they're the people with a stake in convincing the man that the kid is his. Watch for this the next t ime you have a baby.

3. In case you're confused, keep in mind that whenever I say that someone "wants" something, I don't mean that the person wants it in a conscious way; I mean that evolutionary pressures tend to cause people to act in such a way.

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